Purchasing a new computer

C

calkin

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Sep 25, 2014
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Hi Everyone! :wave:

I need to recommend a computer for a SCADA (Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition) system and am looking for some other perspectives. Normally I would have two PC's for redundancy and reliability but in this case they only want to have one (because of the high costs of software licensing), therefore it needs to be very reliable. I've looked at the SCADA suppliers PC recommendations and none of them have two things that I consider important; redundant power supplies, and Raided hard drives (I like Raid 1 for simplicity) with a hardware Raid controller.

The general requirements are:
  1. Budget $4,000 or less.
  2. Windows 7, 64 bit Professional edition.
  3. Intel 2.0 GHz Core2 Duo processor or better, recommended to have a minimum of 3.0 GHz.
  4. Dual core processor.
  5. 8 GB ram.
  6. 10/100/1000 network adapter that is TCP/IP compatible.
  7. 300GB hard drive space.
  8. 24 bit graphics card capable of at least 1024 x 768 resolution and Windows 7 certified.
  9. Minimum of 6 USB ports on the case.
  10. DVD drive.

I found this:HP ProLiant ML310e Gen8 v2 - Xeon E3-1230V3 3.3 GHz - 8 GB - 0 GB - 736661-S01 - x86 Based Servers - CDW.com
(It's an HP ProLiant ML310e Gen8 v2 - Xeon E3-1230V3 3.3 GHz - 8 GB- 0 GB in case the link doesn't work)
but they don't recommend a non-server OS on a server machine and they haven't been responsive to my questions about the redundant power supplies or Raiding the drives.

I've spent a fair amount of time looking and haven't seen anything like what I need.

Has anyone seen something like this? Or have any recommendations for a good online source? I tried to use the custom configuration tools on the HP website and didn't get very far and it doesn't seem like I can customize at all on the Dell site (I know I did it in the past).

Many thanks for any thoughts on this!
 
Hi Calkin, nice to see you again :)

You're definitely looking in the right areas with that HP server - but the lack of redundant PSU's is a pain. I note from the specs that RAID is supported:
View attachment 9958

It would have surprised me if it didn't - the HP Gen8's are very popular servers - the place I worked at over the summer used them extensively. It worries me that they don't specify their RAID controller though, there is a possibility it's software RAID. They just call it their Smart RAID:
Smart Array options provide businesses RAID mirroring and striping capability to protect critical data while the Flash-backed write cache (FBWC) captures and holds data indefinitely in the event of a power loss, equipment failure, human error or virus attacks.
Click to expand...

Going to Dell for the moment, they have two routes to go down for high end systems like this - their Precision workstations or their PowerEdge servers. Their newer 13th generation servers (T430/T630) and their previous series (T420) are fully customisable: PowerEdge T630 Powerful, Efficient, Versatile 2-socket Tower Server | Dell and PowerEdge T420 tower server details | Dell. The 630 can be configured with redundant PSU's, and both can be customised with hardware RAID. Their Precision workstations are also customisable, but don't offer the redundant PSU's: Dell Precision Tower 7810 Engineering Workstation | Dell

Hope this helps a little!

-Stephen
 
Work station! It's amazing what the right word for the search does to improve the results.

I chatted with HP support about the possibilities for redundant PSU's (none) and will investigate the Dells after lunch. The problem I've encountered with the servers is that they don't support Windows 7 as an OS but I'll see what Dell says on that and on the redundant PSU's for their work stations. I asked HP about the power supply form factor to see if an aftermarket redundant supply would fit but they said it was smaller than a standard size one.

THANK YOU! and I'll let everyone know what I wind up picking out at the end of the day.
 
Most likely you'll be able to run Win7 without an issue on the servers but the HP software may not work on it, and there is normally support issues as the first thing they blame will be the non-supported OS if there is a problem with it.
 
Wrench97 said:
Most likely you'll be able to run Win7 without an issue on the servers but the HP software may not work on it, and there is normally support issues as the first thing they blame will be the non-supported OS if there is a problem with it.
Click to expand...

This has been enough of a concern for me that I can't recommend going with the HP set up no matter how much I like the hardware. I did some more digging and Dell has a workstation that would meet all of my requirements (T5500 series) but it has a rack mount case which rules it out :frown6:. I chatted with Lenovo and same issues, redundant PSU's only on servers and servers don't support Windows 7. I messaged SuperMicro Systems and Main Gear about customizing an existing machine but haven't heard back from them (wish my company was so busy we could ignore customers!).

I found a solution from Thinkmate, their GPXi XS8-2460-4PHI and also from Aberdeen, their Stirling W418; but I really hit the jackpot when I contacted Advantech :grin1:. They have been SUPER responsive in getting me quotes and are less costly than the competition. I had them quote it with and without SSD's. The SSD's they quoted are pretty unusual, its called Ultra MLC and it's a hybrid between MLC and SLC for write endurance at about twice the price of MLC. I hope the customer is willing to pay the extra for them as they strike me as being more reliable than the standard HDD's and I HATE getting calls in the middle of the night!

I wish I could have gone with the HP or Dell but without Windows 7 being supported I just can't do it. The set up from Advantech looks pretty good and when the quote is finalized I'll post the specs. They're an interesting company for people like me who do industrial automation because of their brick style computers that can stand being put on the plant floor.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this! They are greatly appreciated. :thumbsup2:

john
 
I understand needing solid PC for the shop floor, try it in a Diesel shop where the tech comes walking in your office with a laptop dripping antifreeze out of it and says it won't boot................................no really........

You have to like a company that responds timely and is also cost effective as long as their support after the sale is just as good they sound like a winner.
 
none of them have two things that I consider important; redundant power supplies, and Raided hard drives
Click to expand...
I don't see the need for redundant PSUs unless absolute, uninterruptible, 24/7/365 uptime is mission essential. But even then I think a quality UPS with AVR would better serve that purpose and IMO, EVERY computer should be on a "good" UPS with AVR anyway to ensure the longest life for your computer (and the PSU that powers it). But I don't see one in your list. :(

Redundant power WILL take a big chunk out of your budget. Much more than simply buying a spare PSU to have in ready storage.

I used to be a fan of RAID1 years ago but frankly, HD reliability has improved so significantly, it is an expensive option with little returns. For one, you immediately start by paying 3 times for the same amount of disk space. Yes 3!

RAID1 requires from the start, at least 2 identical drives and since they are mirrored, you already pay twice for the same space. But the purpose of RAID1 is in the event one drive fails, the system will keep on going without a hiccough or loss of data as the mirrored drive takes over. But then what? You only have one drive in there so to restore your array, you need a [preferably identical] 3rd drive sitting in ready storage just waiting to be swapped in - hence 3 times the cost for the same amount of disk space. Since finding an identical drive years after the purchasing the first pair can be a real and expensive challenge, buying all 3 in the beginning is best - yet costly. And what happens if none of the drives fail? You have a perfectly good, brand new, sealed in the anti-static bag HD going unused, potentially for years.

And what does RAID1 really get you? Only immediate redundancy should 1 drive fail. It does not protect you from malware, data corruption, flood, fire, lightning, or a badguy breaking in and stealing your computer.

To me, one good enterprise class hard drive is what you need, and a good (preferably off-site) backup plan - which you need, regardless.

because of the high costs of software licensing
Click to expand...
What software? With that budget, I don't see paying for 2 Windows licenses and 2 Office suite licenses being cost prohibitive. If using some custom application, that can certainly be an issue. But I think you need to see if 2 machines might not still be a better option if full redundancy is a requirement. You can buy a lot of computer for $2K each.

I am NOT saying there is never a need for redundant power and mirrored drives. I am just saying it is important to really weigh the needs to justify the considerable (immediate and long term) costs - keeping in mind that neither provide any significant performance advantages either.
 
Hi Digerati!

Just to clarify some things.

For back up power our customer is providing a high end UPS for the system, that's why I didn't list it, they also have an on site generator to be able to complete production runs in case of an outage.

Loss of the PC means loss of data and possibly losing control of the process, each production cycle has 5-50k of product in it that would be lost in either case. Thus the spare hardware is cheap in comparison. In many industries if you do not have the data from the production process then the product is not salable, such as aerospace or pharma. Typically I would log the data on the PLC controller in addition to the PC and run a separate handshaked process to ensure the data was good before clearing it from the PLC but I don't have the option in this case. Depending on circumstances I may still add a separate data acquisition PLC as an additional level of redundancy for the data.

The Windows and Office software are essentially free in comparison with the SCADA software. I'm still working with the software vendor but it looks like there will be between 10k and 15k in software for the system.

The data will be backed up to their network servers on a per load basis so I'm not terribly concerned about loss that way, but one of the challenges of these systems is actually keeping the IT people and their updates away from them. It is very common for there to be unintended consequences associated with upgrades, my favorite was having an entire production system down at a previous employer for over a week after a "small" Windows update!

With the front end being run there is no access to the internet or the desk top except by administrators so that should help with malware.



Hi Wrench97!
I feel your pain. When keyboards used to be expensive I would often have to take them apart and clean them with Joy dish washing soap, drying, and reassembling. For cleaning up industrial electronics boards I've had excellent luck with this method but I don't think a laptops screen or hard drive would take well to it :smile9:.
 
It sounds like you have it pretty well thought out. With a high-end UPS for power regulation and facility backup generators to minimize battery runtime requirements, I am still not sure I would go for redundant PSUs, especially if dropping them would fund the SSDs. While certainly PSUs do fail and with some people's luck, it would definitely be at the worse possible time, just seems odds are it would be something else that shutdown a production run first, and I would rather go for data integrity to a real-time backup system.

But then, I would hate to be the one to tell the bosses a production run failed because a PSU died after talking them out of buying redundant PSUs. Glad I am retired and no longer have to make those type decisions. :grin1:
 
Well, the system has finally arrived and I'm just beginning to load software on it. The box it came in was about half the size of my desk, the actual case is 7"x17"x25" and so far it is extremely quiet :grin1:. I think the customer will be well pleased with the final product.

Thanks to all for your suggestions that got me looking in the right direction!
 

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